Teachers 15.75% with 5 months of back pay.

[Mic]

Regarding the comments that the Union has stuffed this up, how exactly? What should they have done instead?

[Mic]

Yes I suspect you're right about the high fives.

Funny how quick unionists are to call strike action when they know that their members will be docked pay whilst their own pay is safe and secure during a strike.

No AEU member is forced to strike. The way it works is that if there is a majority of votes from sub-branches (union members of a school) for the strike to occur on the date proposed by the Union, only then will it take place. Then union members choose whether they themselves want to strike.

It's not like the Union just decides all members will strike and then they are forced to do so.

Plus all AEU unionists are ex-teachers, many who have family members who are teachers. To suggest they don't care about teachers losing some of their wage is ridiculous.

[Ian]

I know plenty of Plumbers, Sparkies & Chippies (4 yr TAFE course NOT Uni) that are making s***loads more than your so called $80K for "baby sitting"

How many hours are those tradies putting in to earn more than a teacher?
How many thousands of dollars do they have to outlay and then try and get a return on for tools, equipement and vehicles?


I work in a role where you have to be a tradesperson first, then they expect 5-10 years experience, then to earn the same as a first year teacher you have to have completed a cert. IV. The government gave us a rise as well 2.5% a year for 3 years, 1/2 what you lot got, don't think you are hard done by compared to trades or a lot of other occupations.

[dedja]

Regarding the comments that the Union has stuffed this up, how exactly? What should they have done instead?

Start with a more realistic claim and stop being so billigerent at the start of the negotiations, stop playing media games to cloud a wages claim with other classroom conditions, stop alienating parents by conducting rolling strikes (which were later deemed illegal), stop comparing SA wages to other states when clearly there is cost of living difference, stop claiming that teachers will cross the border into other states in droves when clearly this is ridiculous, accept the decision of the arbitration commission ... all that would be a good start.

[dedja]

Yes I suspect you're right about the high fives.

Funny how quick unionists are to call strike action when they know that their members will be docked pay whilst their own pay is safe and secure during a strike.

No AEU member is forced to strike. The way it works is that if there is a majority of votes from sub-branches (union members of a school) for the strike to occur on the date proposed by the Union, only then will it take place. Then union members choose whether they themselves want to strike.

It's not like the Union just decides all members will strike and then they are forced to do so.

Plus all AEU unionists are ex-teachers, many who have family members who are teachers. To suggest they don't care about teachers losing some of their wage is ridiculous.

Yes, very true ... but you can't tell me there isn't pressure to conform?

Even those that do turn up tend to not conduct normal classroom activities on the day so it ends up being a protest anyway. There is no coincidence that unions are suffering that fate of the dinosaur when their tactics haven't changed for many, many years.

Maybe the school that my kids go to isn't representative of others ... maybe my sister with 35 years teaching experience doesn't know what she's talking about ... maybe the principal at my kids school is clueless. That's all quite possbile but I highly doubt it.

[Mic]

Regarding the comments that the Union has stuffed this up, how exactly? What should they have done instead?

Start with a more realistic claim and stop being so billigerent at the start of the negotiations, stop playing media games to cloud a wages claim with other classroom conditions, stop alienating parents by conducting rolling strikes (which were later deemed illegal), stop comparing SA wages to other states when clearly there is cost of living difference, stop claiming that teachers will cross the border into other states in droves when clearly this is ridiculous, accept the decision of the arbitration commission ... all that would be a good start.

My understanding is that claims are usually made higher than what is a reasonable amount so that a decent middle ground can be found, which is what ended up happening.
Not sure what media games you are referring to. The enterprise bargaining has always covered all sorts of issues with education, not just wages.
I believe that the AEU did not do enough to get support from parents, if they did the strikes wouldn't have 'alienated parents' (if that's what happened).
I agree with you about the cost of living argument.
3 of my group of teaching friends from Uni started their teaching career interstate. Doesn't happen in droves but it does happen. The bigger issue is that interstate teachers seem to get offered jobs much earlier than they do in SA.
Have they not accepted the decision of the arbitration commission?

[Mic]

Yes I suspect you're right about the high fives.

Funny how quick unionists are to call strike action when they know that their members will be docked pay whilst their own pay is safe and secure during a strike.

No AEU member is forced to strike. The way it works is that if there is a majority of votes from sub-branches (union members of a school) for the strike to occur on the date proposed by the Union, only then will it take place. Then union members choose whether they themselves want to strike.

It's not like the Union just decides all members will strike and then they are forced to do so.

Plus all AEU unionists are ex-teachers, many who have family members who are teachers. To suggest they don't care about teachers losing some of their wage is ridiculous.

Yes, very true ... but you can't tell me there isn't pressure to conform?

Even those that do turn up tend to not conduct normal classroom activities on the day so it ends up being a protest anyway. There is no coincidence that unions are suffering that fate of the dinosaur when their tactics haven't changed for many, many years.

Maybe the school that my kids go to isn't representative of others ... maybe my sister with 35 years teaching experience doesn't know what she's talking about ... maybe the principal at my kids school is clueless. That's all quite possbile but I highly doubt it.

I've never witnessed anyone pressured into conforming at the workplaces I have been at, if it is happening elsewhere then that is certainly an issue for that sub-branch.

I'm not suggesting the people you know in education are wrong.

[FlyingHigh]

I know plenty of Plumbers, Sparkies & Chippies (4 yr TAFE course NOT Uni) that are making s***loads more than your so called $80K for "baby sitting"

How many hours are those tradies putting in to earn more than a teacher?
How many thousands of dollars do they have to outlay and then try and get a return on for tools, equipement and vehicles?


I work in a role where you have to be a tradesperson first, then they expect 5-10 years experience, then to earn the same as a first year teacher you have to have completed a cert. IV. The government gave us a rise as well 2.5% a year for 3 years, 1/2 what you lot got, don't think you are hard done by compared to trades or a lot of other occupations.

I would imagine those tools, equipment and vehicles can all be claimed somehow as tax deductions? HECS fees, to my knowledge, can't be. Uni fees if paid up front and related to the current working position can be - in my own situation this has meant 45-50 hours work + 20 hours study per week.

As a general guide, 2 year full-time TAFE Diploma will give you credit for first year Uni. So why shouldn't those without tertiary education have to work more hours if they want to earn the same money as those who have the ability to undertake and acquire tertiary qualifications? (if education level is a guide to complexity of work) I guess it comes down to what society values.

Looking at it from the wider picture, this whole argument is BS, because we are all in the same situation regardless of our occupation. The fact is Australians are working harder and longer than anyone else in the world, I believe an average of 44 hours per week (and I'd doubt a teacher would be under this) so we can pay off the world's most expensive homes.

[dedja]

They have now accepted the arbitration commission determination but in the early negotiation they disregarded recommendations to continue to negotiate and not strike. They only stopped the rolling strikes when threatened with legal action.

Let me clarify that I think teaching can be a very tough gig and the expectations now are far greater than in the past.

As in all professions, there is a combination of outstanding, very good, good, average and below par performances. The principal at my girls primary school is an absolute legend and he would put in 10-12 hour days doing everything from running the strategy and budget to putting out and taking in the bins at the start and end of the day. In my opinion he is grossly underpaid. The reason he does this is that he has a co-principal (who is really his deputy) who doesn't put in anywhere near as much as him, and the fact he is so passionate about the teaching standards and the school.

There other thing that is quite unfair is the lack of stability and continuity for many teachers who have to move regularly between schools, sometimes with little notice.

Not withstanding all that teachers do have unique conditions and some of them really do get it easy. Yes, teachers do put in more hours sometimes for such activities such as preparing for lessons, doing marking, co-ordinating sports or other extra-curricular activities, but they sometimes only have to be there from 8:30am-4:00pm, have 12 weeks leave, and student free days. There is no way known that the vast majority of teachers perform 8 weeks of extra work each year to compensate for their generous leave.

There are many, many other professions where people do more than their contracted hours so teachers using this to justify their leave doesn't wash.

Also, there seems to be great resistance to be transparent in measuring teacher's performance. There are now 9 steps and the first 8 are automatic and every teacher will achieve these without performance reviews but just turning up. This is not the modern way that businesses (public and private) incent their employees. The pay for performance can be managed very easily with indivudal KPIs and performance measures negotiated between the teacher and the principal ... this does not infer that performance is linked to NAPLAN scores or gross student results, but by measuring curriculum development, relative student performance, issues management, etc. This is what is now acceptable in the workplace, including most if not all other State Government employees.

A salary increase outcome of around 4% per year is fair, but I'd like to see the better performing teachers being incented with performance bonuses to increase this ... something of the order of 10-20% extra per year based on yearly performance determination would be reasonable.

[Mic]

They have now accepted the arbitration commission determination but in the early negotiation they disregarded recommendations to continue to negotiate and not strike. They only stopped the rolling strikes when threatened with legal action.

Let me clarify that I think teaching can be a very tough gig and the expectations now are far greater than in the past.

As in all professions, there is a combination of outstanding, very good, good, average and below par performances. The principal at my girls primary school is an absolute legend and he would put in 10-12 hour days doing everything from running the strategy and budget to putting out and taking in the bins at the start and end of the day. In my opinion he is grossly underpaid. The reason he does this is that he has a co-principal (who is really his deputy) who doesn't put in anywhere near as much as him, and the fact he is so passionate about the teaching standards and the school.

There other thing that is quite unfair is the lack of stability and continuity for many teachers who have to move regularly between schools, sometimes with little notice.

Not withstanding all that teachers do have unique conditions and some of them really do get it easy. Yes, teachers do put in more hours sometimes for such activities such as preparing for lessons, doing marking, co-ordinating sports or other extra-curricular activities, but they sometimes only have to be there from 8:30am-4:00pm, have 12 weeks leave, and student free days. There is no way known that the vast majority of teachers perform 8 weeks of extra work each year to compensate for their generous leave.

There are many, many other professions where people do more than their contracted hours so teachers using this to justify their leave doesn't wash.

Also, there seems to be great resistance to be tranparent in measuring teacher's performance. There are now 9 steps and the first 8 are automatic and every teacher will achieve these without performance reviews but just turning up. This is not the modern way that businesses (public and private) incent their employees. The pay for performance can be managed very easily with indivudal KPIs and performance measures negotiated between the teacher and the principal ... this does not infer that performance is linked to NAPLAN scores or gross student results, but by measuring curriculum development, relative student performance, issues management, etc. This is what is now acceptable in the workplace, including most if not all other State Government employees.

There is certainly no easy way of measuring a teacher's performance, the role for a teacher is far too complicated (especially when that role keeps expanding). I don't know how you could measure it. I also don't know who would do the measuring - Principals, DPs, APs are too busy already. Politicians in this country have proposed this idea in the past, none have have been able to explain how it would be done.

[dedja]

There is certainly no easy way of measuring a teacher's performance, the role for a teacher is far too complicated (especially when that role keeps expanding). I don't know how you could measure it. I also don't know who would do the measuring - Principals, DPs, APs are too busy already. Politicians in this country have proposed this idea in the past, none have have been able to explain how it would be done.

I think you'll find there is ... every profession has to work under the governance of strategic and operational planning. There are set goals and outcomes that the organisation is trying to achieve. The Education Department will set the strategic goals and the Principal will set operational goals in line with departmental strategy. Under this framework, it is very easy to determine KPIs and agree to measures. The KPIs and measures would be individually tailored for each teacher, and measured by the Principal and/or Deputies. Everyone else seems to be able to manage it! What makes education so unique in this regard?

So you are suggesting is that it's all too hard and can't be done. If so, how do we currently ensure consistency in curriculm, school virtues & values, etc? Are there no targets being set by the teacher in his/her role in the classroom? The Principals and Deputies don't have a say in all this?

Or it currently just a free for all? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that argument.

Think of it in another way. In your career, have you come across teachers that were either below par, or perform above and beyond? If so, was it well known within that school? How did you and your peers come to those conclusions ... was there some sort of informal performance measurement or assessment in your thoughts? Did it make you angry that someone was not putting in or not being recognised for their efforts (especially if it was you)?

May I politely suggest that this a public service legacy issue and resistance from a union that has fallen behind modern times.

Again for context, I have spend 2 stints working for the State Government. The first was 8 years as a public servant on enterprise bargaining (under the Public Service Management Act), and the second was 3 years on a performance based contract with yearly performance reviews.

[Mic]

There is certainly no easy way of measuring a teacher's performance, the role for a teacher is far too complicated (especially when that role keeps expanding). I don't know how you could measure it. I also don't know who would do the measuring - Principals, DPs, APs are too busy already. Politicians in this country have proposed this idea in the past, none have have been able to explain how it would be done.

I think you'll find there is ... every profession has to work under the governance of strategic and operational planning. There are set goals and outcomes that the organisation is trying to achieve. The Education Department will set the strategic goals and the Principal will set operational goals in line with departmental strategy. Under this framework, it is very easy to determine KPIs and agree to measures. The KPIs and measures would be individually tailored for each teacher, and measured by the Principal and/or Deputies. Everyone else seems to be able to manage it! What makes education so unique in this regard?

So you are suggesting is that it's all too hard and can't be done. If so, how do we currently ensure consistency in curriculm, school virtues & values, etc? Are there no targets being set by the teacher in his/her role in the classroom? The Principals and Deputies don't have a say in all this?

Or it currently just a free for all? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that argument.

May I politely suggest that this a public service legacy issue and resistance from a union that has fallen behind modern times.

Again for context, I have spend 2 stints working for the State Government. The first was 8 years as a public servant on enterprise bargaining (under the Public Service Management Act), and the second was 3 years on a performance based contract with yearly performance reviews.

I should have added that I think it would be far too complicated to put a dollar figure onto a teacher's performance.

All schools have their Strategic Directions, and it is the principal's role to ensure these are being achieved by their school's staff through various measures such as performance management meetings every term. But this would not cover everything a teacher does, and so many things like doing more out of hours could possibly go unrewarded financially.

I'm suggesting that it is the role of the principal (if they are doing their job properly) to ensure the "curriculm, school virtues & values, etc" is being achieved by their staff.

On a different note I would be in favour of an easier process to get rid of teachers who are under-performing, the process is still too long. I haven't encountered too many of these thankfully.

[dedja]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

[RustyCage]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

Thats all good to say, but exactly how would you determine a teachers performance? What factors would you consider, and as importantly, what factors would you disregard?

And in regard to the strikes, everyone I know who didnt want to strike was forced to do so by the school being closed down for each of the strikes.

Also for non teachers out there, what is you view on the new Myschool website?

[Mic]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

Even though I believe I would do pretty good with a system like that, no.

I worry about linking money to what a teacher does. Like the principal you mentioned earlier, the teachers who put in all the extra effort and time usually do it because they want to do it, not because it is going to get them a higher wage. I fear that passion could be lost.

[dedja]

Also for non teachers out there, what is you view on the new Myschool website?

I think it gives some useful information but there are a lot more things to consider than just the NAPLAN results. It gives a guide to performance but it should be taken in context and not used as a definitive measure of school performance.

My eldest daughter in year 7 so my wife and I need to choose a secondary school very soon. Does the myschools site give us all the info we need? No, but we will still have a look at the details on there and it will assist in our decision making to some small extent.

[FlyingHigh]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

Even though I believe I would do pretty good with a system like that, no.

Pretty well??

[dedja]

Thats all good to say, but exactly how would you determine a teachers performance? What factors would you consider, and as importantly, what factors would you disregard?

And in regard to the strikes, everyone I know who didnt want to strike was forced to do so by the school being closed down for each of the strikes.

Also for non teachers out there, what is you view on the new Myschool website?

There would be a component which relates directly to the curriculum and school measures as determined by the Principals and Deputies. This would be standard for all. Then there would be a individual component which would be tailored to each and every teacher. These individual KPIs would be agreed between the teacher and the respective Principal/Deputy.

For example, if a teacher wants to perform extra curricuar activities then these could be included and recognition afforded to them for that extra effort if they so desire. The strength of such a process is that the individual measures aren't forced upon the teacher, but instead are agreed so that there is recognition of their efforts which are then considered to be above expectation if they perform well. It's all about setting a baseline to determine acceptable, above or below par performance.

[dedja]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

Even though I believe I would do pretty good with a system like that, no.

Pretty well??

LOL

[Mic]

OK, all good stuff, but would you personally like to see a perfomance based component in addition to your salary to reward achievement?

Even though I believe I would do pretty good with a system like that, no.

Pretty well??

LOL

Sorry, am typing these responses quickly due to the 10 hours of schoolwork I have to get done today.

Sadly it's true.