stan wrote:Play whoever we like in those conditions, how are we going tk get guys like Kolhi, Pujara, Rahul and Vijay out?
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Got to back in Starc and Hazlewood. Both are good enough to get something out of any pitch IMHO. I think we also tend to get carried away thinking the Indians are flawless against spin. Just got to be smart with our selections. I think Lyon is a bowler who needs the ball to bounce to be effective. If he can't get that then perhaps he isn't the man. O'Keefe doesn't need a lot of movement on the ball to be effective so he might in fact be the best option over there. The extra spin he'll get should make him more effective.
O'Keefe? When did the selectors think left arm pies were the answer?
O'Keeffe readily admits he is not a big turner of the ball but relies on his change of pace and flight (well thats what Kerry said anyway) Not a big fan of his but there isnt too many other options on the dance floor right now
locky801 wrote:O'Keeffe readily admits he is not a big turner of the ball but relies on his change of pace and flight (well thats what Kerry said anyway) Not a big fan of his but there isnt too many other options on the dance floor right now
As shown in the Sydney test match O'Keefe changes his pace really well (doesn't have many weapons so he needs to do it well) and didn't bowl above 90km/h often, if at all. Completely opposite to Nathan Lyon who this summer has been constantly around 90km/h, often above that and was criticized this summer for bowling too fast, and too straight aswell.
No surprise traditionally offies have done better in India than leggies.
You need accurate spinners over big turners, small boundaries and quick outfields means in a lot of cases the leggies who are generally less accurate cant build enough pressure without bowling that one bad ball which always gets punished and offies become big turners on their wickets anyway
For me I would start with
Renshaw (sweep like buggery big man) Warner Khawaja (one test to prove he can play spin or goodbye) Smith Handscomb S.Marsh (his sub continent record is to good to ignore) Wade (supposedly is by far the best bat against spin of all keepers, I don't know enough about it) Starc O'Keefe Hazelwood Lyon
Obviously Lyon and O'Keefe bowl the majority of overs, Smith and Warner are arguably just as handy as any leg spinner we can take over so they will offer a change up.
TBH even if the selectors get it 100% right and our guys play to the best of our ability I'm not sure we are good enough to beat them over there
whufc wrote:O'Keefe and Lyon is the best two options imho
No surprise traditionally offies have done better in India than leggies.
You need accurate spinners over big turners, small boundaries and quick outfields means in a lot of cases the leggies who are generally less accurate cant build enough pressure without bowling that one bad ball which always gets punished and offies become big turners on their wickets anyway
Wade (supposedly is by far the best bat against spin of all keepers, I don't know enough about it)
TBH even if the selectors get it 100% right and our guys play to the best of our ability I'm not sure we are good enough to beat them over there
Good point about the spinners whufc.
As he's shown in ODI cricket Matthew Wade is the best exponent of the sweep shot out of all the current Australian players. He's just about the only one that does it well on a consistent basis.
It'll be an intriguing series and will be a huge test. I can't see us beating them, it'll be an absolute miracle if we do. IF we're able to draw the series we've done extremely well.
whufc wrote:O'Keefe and Lyon is the best two options imho
No surprise traditionally offies have done better in India than leggies.
You need accurate spinners over big turners, small boundaries and quick outfields means in a lot of cases the leggies who are generally less accurate cant build enough pressure without bowling that one bad ball which always gets punished and offies become big turners on their wickets anyway
Wade (supposedly is by far the best bat against spin of all keepers, I don't know enough about it)
TBH even if the selectors get it 100% right and our guys play to the best of our ability I'm not sure we are good enough to beat them over there
Good point about the spinners whufc.
As he's shown in ODI cricket Matthew Wade is the best exponent of the sweep shot out of all the current Australian players. He's just about the only one that does it well on a consistent basis.
It'll be an intriguing series and will be a huge test. I can't see us beating them, it'll be an absolute miracle if we do. IF we're able to draw the series we've done extremely well.
Wade will need to make a shit load of runs to make up for the dozen dropped catches or missed stumpings he has over there. Would be close to the worst keeper of spin in Australia
In 16 vs Sri Lanka was Neville we lost the series 3-0 he score:
1st test: 2 of 11 balls 9 off 115 balls
2nd test: 0 of 1 ball 24 of 38 balls
3rd test: 14 of 34 balls 2 of 10 balls
Wade played in India in 2013 he scored for the 3 tests he played in the series
12, 8, 62, 10, 19
Strangely enough (and admittedly it doesn't tell the full picture because of drops missed stumpings etc) but Wade averaged 9 byes an innings while Neville averaged 13 byes an innings including 23 in one innings (Wades highest was 13 in an innings)
TBH neither seem like they have a clue to batting on those wickets
Anyone writing off O'Keefe based on the fact he doesn't turn it much is an idiot and just doesn't understand bowling in general, let alone spin bowling. Batsmen at test level hit the spot they aim for with incredible accuracy. Watch those tracking replays and the number of times the ball without movement would have hit the middle of the bat is pretty darn impressive. They even manage to adjust to deviation a lot. The trick is to make the ball move more than they expect, later than they can adjust to or too little for them to notice. For a spinner, it's definitely possible to turn it too much. When it turns square the batsman will never underestimate the turn. But if the ball's movement varies between an inch and an couple of inches, that can be huge. An inch and a half away from the middle is an edge. An inch is a mishit. You'd bowl 20 balls just trying to get either one.
Reckon in Indian conditions that his subtle variety will work more. The best over there have tended to be guys who turned it less. The big turners just got predictable.
Grahaml wrote:Anyone writing off O'Keefe based on the fact he doesn't turn it much is an idiot and just doesn't understand bowling in general, let alone spin bowling. Batsmen at test level hit the spot they aim for with incredible accuracy. Watch those tracking replays and the number of times the ball without movement would have hit the middle of the bat is pretty darn impressive. They even manage to adjust to deviation a lot. The trick is to make the ball move more than they expect, later than they can adjust to or too little for them to notice. For a spinner, it's definitely possible to turn it too much. When it turns square the batsman will never underestimate the turn. But if the ball's movement varies between an inch and an couple of inches, that can be huge. An inch and a half away from the middle is an edge. An inch is a mishit. You'd bowl 20 balls just trying to get either one.
Reckon in Indian conditions that his subtle variety will work more. The best over there have tended to be guys who turned it less. The big turners just got predictable.
Defeated your own argument here, O'Keefe doesn't turn them an inch.
I think his biggest weapon is his drift which isn't going to worry the likes of Kohli and co. He'll be a lamb to the slaughter.
O'Keefe is a good spinner to bowl in tandem with a wrist spinner or big turner of the ball. You know SOK is going to be consistent in his areas and not give many loose balls, can get through his overs quickly to build pressure and force bats to go at the other end.
Under rated IMO.
Dolphin Treasure wrote:Your an attention seeking embarsement..
Grahaml wrote:Anyone writing off O'Keefe based on the fact he doesn't turn it much is an idiot and just doesn't understand bowling in general, let alone spin bowling. Batsmen at test level hit the spot they aim for with incredible accuracy. Watch those tracking replays and the number of times the ball without movement would have hit the middle of the bat is pretty darn impressive. They even manage to adjust to deviation a lot. The trick is to make the ball move more than they expect, later than they can adjust to or too little for them to notice. For a spinner, it's definitely possible to turn it too much. When it turns square the batsman will never underestimate the turn. But if the ball's movement varies between an inch and an couple of inches, that can be huge. An inch and a half away from the middle is an edge. An inch is a mishit. You'd bowl 20 balls just trying to get either one.
Reckon in Indian conditions that his subtle variety will work more. The best over there have tended to be guys who turned it less. The big turners just got predictable.
Defeated your own argument here, O'Keefe doesn't turn them an inch.
I think his biggest weapon is his drift which isn't going to worry the likes of Kohli and co. He'll be a lamb to the slaughter.
Any other spinner in Australia would be an even bigger lamb to the slaughter. If you don't rate O'Keefe as our second best spin option who would you take to India instead?
Grahaml wrote:Anyone writing off O'Keefe based on the fact he doesn't turn it much is an idiot and just doesn't understand bowling in general, let alone spin bowling. Batsmen at test level hit the spot they aim for with incredible accuracy. Watch those tracking replays and the number of times the ball without movement would have hit the middle of the bat is pretty darn impressive. They even manage to adjust to deviation a lot. The trick is to make the ball move more than they expect, later than they can adjust to or too little for them to notice. For a spinner, it's definitely possible to turn it too much. When it turns square the batsman will never underestimate the turn. But if the ball's movement varies between an inch and an couple of inches, that can be huge. An inch and a half away from the middle is an edge. An inch is a mishit. You'd bowl 20 balls just trying to get either one.
Reckon in Indian conditions that his subtle variety will work more. The best over there have tended to be guys who turned it less. The big turners just got predictable.
Defeated your own argument here, O'Keefe doesn't turn them an inch.
I think his biggest weapon is his drift which isn't going to worry the likes of Kohli and co. He'll be a lamb to the slaughter.
Any other spinner in Australia would be an even bigger lamb to the slaughter. If you don't rate O'Keefe as our second best spin option who would you take to India instead?
Grahaml wrote:Anyone writing off O'Keefe based on the fact he doesn't turn it much is an idiot and just doesn't understand bowling in general, let alone spin bowling. Batsmen at test level hit the spot they aim for with incredible accuracy. Watch those tracking replays and the number of times the ball without movement would have hit the middle of the bat is pretty darn impressive. They even manage to adjust to deviation a lot. The trick is to make the ball move more than they expect, later than they can adjust to or too little for them to notice. For a spinner, it's definitely possible to turn it too much. When it turns square the batsman will never underestimate the turn. But if the ball's movement varies between an inch and an couple of inches, that can be huge. An inch and a half away from the middle is an edge. An inch is a mishit. You'd bowl 20 balls just trying to get either one.
Reckon in Indian conditions that his subtle variety will work more. The best over there have tended to be guys who turned it less. The big turners just got predictable.
Defeated your own argument here, O'Keefe doesn't turn them an inch.
I think his biggest weapon is his drift which isn't going to worry the likes of Kohli and co. He'll be a lamb to the slaughter.
Any other spinner in Australia would be an even bigger lamb to the slaughter. If you don't rate O'Keefe as our second best spin option who would you take to India instead?
The Dark Knight wrote:Any other spinner in Australia would be an even bigger lamb to the slaughter. If you don't rate O'Keefe as our second best spin option who would you take to India instead?
If the selectors are going to remain consistent with their "youth" selection policy then 24 year old Zampa goes ahead of 32 year old O'Keefe, but, Zampa averages closer to 50 then O'Keefe's 32 at 1st class level.
If I was to be selecting the side I'd be telling Smith that he needs to bowl more and use Maxwell and Smith to share the load as the second spinner. Smith made his Test debut in India as a leggie, batting at 8. He must do more bowling as I think there's little doubt we'll be chasing some big numbers so must play 6 batsman in this series, that gets Maxwell in and Nevill in his rightful spot of 8.
I'd play :
Renshaw Warner Khawaja Smith Tall, dark and S.Marsh Maxwell Nevill Starc Hazlewood Lyon
As for "bigger lamb to the slaughter", not sure there's degrees of slaughter.
