bye bye Mr Rudd

[smac]

Psyber, can I attempt to paraphrase?

You are suggesting that if Australia were to become a Republic, we should get it right and not change to any old model just for the sake of it? Sounds sensible to me.

[redandblack]

Unfortunately, smac, that's not quite right.

Psyber is not saying we should get it right. He's saying we should adopt what he wants, because only his model is right. That is more than a subtle difference.

While I respect his right to that opinion, while he and others have that approach, rightly or wrongly, we'll never have a Republic.

If we don't ever have a republic, we will continue to have Queen Elizabeth or King Charles or their successors as our Head of State in perpetuity.

I have trust in Australians to be able to govern ourselves.

There's nothing in the above that's twisting anything.

[Psyber]

Psyber, can I attempt to paraphrase?
You are suggesting that if Australia were to become a Republic, we should get it right and not change to any old model just for the sake of it? Sounds sensible to me.

Yes that is what I have kept trying to make clear - I'm glad someone got it!
R&B and I may not agree on what is right, but that is what a good referendum could seek consensus about, instead of trying to ram through only the version the party machines want.

[Psyber]

Unfortunately, smac, that's not quite right.

Psyber is not saying we should get it right. He's saying we should adopt what he wants, because only his model is right. That is more than a subtle difference.

While I respect his right to that opinion, while he and others have that approach, rightly or wrongly, we'll never have a Republic.

If we don't ever have a republic, we will continue to have Queen Elizabeth or King Charles or their successors as our Head of State in perpetuity.

I have trust in Australians to be able to govern ourselves.

There's nothing in the above that's twisting anything.

No, R&B I am not saying only my model is right in absolute terms. I'm saying that is the only model I will vote for because it is the one that looks right to me.
You can vote for whatever you think is right for you and your fellow Australians, including the dictatorship of the proletariat if you like that idea.
You are trying to insist I should vote for any Republican model because you think that is absolute right, and you are trying to put words other than mine in my mouth.

If we have a referendum in which all the options are canvassed and the majority of the public select one I don't like then that is my bad luck. I can live with it or leave.
But I do think the public should get the say in choosing their preferred model, and not have only the one option the parties like offered - after all that would be a bad as only offering my model.

[redandblack]

That's fine, Psyber, I don't have much disagreement with that, beyond the fact you accuse me of putting words in your mouth and then do the same in return.

However, at least there's common ground, so before we finish the debate, I would ask you what I think is a fair and reasonable question.

It is most likely that when this question is put to the people, it will be put in two parts.

The first will be "Do you favour a Republic".

If this is passed, the next will be a choice of two or three models.

Given that passing the first means a republic under some model, how would you vote?

If you vote No, because you can't be sure of the eventual model, you're voting for us never to be a republic. If you vote Yes, you may get the republic you don't want.

I hope you appreciate I'm trying to pose a fair and relevant question with this.

In any event, I'll leave it there and say it's nice to have a good debate

[Psyber]

R&B, it is not a simple question with a simply answer, but I'll try.

Single question version as a Referendum empowering a Constitutional change:
Do you favour a Republic? - I vote NO. [Because they can turn that into whatever they like.]
Do you favour a Republic with the details to be decided by a committee? - I vote NO.
Do you favour a Republic with the format to be decided by a future Referendum? - I vote YES.

If they want to ask for information making it clear this is not a binding referendum:
Do you favour a Republic? - I vote YES.

Two part version of a referendum:
Do you favour a Republic?
Which of these 3 methods do you prefer?

If my preferred model is one of the 3 - I vote YES and tick it.
If it is not one of the 3, but there is one I find acceptable - I vote YES and tick it.
If they don't offer an option I like - I vote NO.


Yes I'd rather we were never a Republic than have what I thought was a bad form of government.
I am expressing my personal preference - this is personal democracy at work!
I think we should have public debate and agree on a method before we approve a constitutional amendment by Referendum.
I don't want to risk buying a pig in a poke, and thus more or less give the politicians a blank cheque, because I think they are, on average, less altruistic than I am.

[best on hill]

R&B, it is not a simple question with a simply answer, but I'll try.

Single question version as a Referendum empowering a Constitutional change:
Do you favour a Republic? - I vote NO. [Because they can turn that into whatever they like.]
Do you favour a Republic with the details to be decided by a committee? - I vote NO.
Do you favour a Republic with the format to be decided by a future Referendum? - I vote YES.

If they want to ask for information making it clear this is not a binding referendum:
Do you favour a Republic? - I vote YES.

Two part version of a referendum:
Do you favour a Republic?
Which of these 3 methods do you prefer?

If my preferred model is one of the 3 - I vote YES and tick it.
If it is not one of the 3, but there is one I find acceptable - I vote YES and tick it.
If they don't offer an option I like - I vote NO.


Yes I'd rather we were never a Republic than have what I thought was a bad form of government.
I am expressing my personal preference - this is personal democracy at work!
I think we should have public debate and agree on a method before we approve a constitutional amendment by Referendum.
I don't want to risk buying a pig in a poke, and thus more or less give the politicians a blank cheque, because I think they are, on average, less altruistic than I am.

we have already had a referendum. on a republic, but this was howard version of a republic and australia voted against it! you must remember howard version of a republic was a direct attack on australias constitution the very thing that makes this country such a great place to live and work not a vote for republic or monachy. but saying that if we became a republic and we still had the same protection of the constitution we have at the moment but with a head of state that was australian maybe its a good thing maybe not. wait and see what model they come up with will determine my vote!

[Psyber]

... we have already had a referendum. on a republic, but this was howard version of a republic and australia voted against it! you must remember howard version of a republic was a direct attack on australias constitution the very thing that makes this country such a great place to live and work not a vote for republic or monachy. but saying that if we became a republic and we still had the same protection of the constitution we have at the moment but with a head of state that was australian maybe its a good thing maybe not. wait and see what model they come up with will determine my vote!

I don't recall, now, the details of how it came about back then, but I think the formula offered was approved be both parties at the time, and in one form or another let the Parliament appoint whoever they wanted, either directly or indirectly from a list prepared by a committee selected by Parliament. Neither party wanted a HOS directly elected by the public. Both parties have wanted to strip the HOS of dismissal powers since 1975 out of fear it could happen to them at some future date.

It was dressed up as offering the option most Australians wanted, and the vote showed they obviously didn't, as you say!

[Psyber]

I was sent this today http://www.ruddshop.com/

[BALLHOG]

Is anyone watching the John Howard years on the abc? **** knows how he was in power for so long.

[Psyber]

Is anyone watching the John Howard years on the abc? f*** knows how he was in power for so long.

I suspect the lack of a viable alternative the general middle-ground public would buy in either party...

[therisingblues]

If I had known that people were talking about the rebublic on this thread I probably would have jumped in a while ago, but the header just remained "Bye bye Mr Rudd" and I didn't think I'd have an interest in any of it, so I checked it when it first came out and never bothered after that.
I couldn't be screwed going through twenty odd pages of this to find out what's been said that's relevant to the republic, so I reckon the politics forum needs more threads and less multi-headed monsters like this beast I am writing on now.

[Psyber]

If I had known that people were talking about the rebublic on this thread I probably would have jumped in a while ago, but the header just remained "Bye bye Mr Rudd" and I didn't think I'd have an interest in any of it, so I checked it when it first came out and never bothered after that.
I couldn't be screwed going through twenty odd pages of this to find out what's been said that's relevant to the republic, so I reckon the politics forum needs more threads and less multi-headed monsters like this beast I am writing on now.

Probably not a bad idea TRB..

[BALLHOG]

What are peoples thoughts on removing the Union Jack from the flag and replacing it with the aboriginal flag and having that with the southern cross, I'm a supporter of the change.

[smac]

For what reason, ballhog?

[Dirko]

What are peoples thoughts on removing the Union Jack from the flag and replacing it with the aboriginal flag and having that with the southern cross, I'm a supporter of the change.

As per smac, what reason ?

What about the Torres Strait flag. if you fly the Aboriginal flag, you must fly the Torres Strait flag also......

[BALLHOG]

For what reason, ballhog?

I just think they deserve some recognition.

[smac]

For what reason, ballhog?

I just think they deserve some recognition.

I reckon changing the flag would be seen as tokenism, not sure it will really provide the recognition deserved. I would like to see more efforts put into cultural recognitions. Something like booting Australia Day in exchange for a significant Aboriginal event/timing. I'm sure some change to the flag would assist in starting a process, but on its own wouldn't achieve much.

I also think a new flag is a better idea, rather than any of the existing Country/Cultural flags.

[BALLHOG]

For what reason, ballhog?

I just think they deserve some recognition.

I reckon changing the flag would be seen as tokenism, not sure it will really provide the recognition deserved. I would like to see more efforts put into cultural recognitions. Something like booting Australia Day in exchange for a significant Aboriginal event/timing. I'm sure some change to the flag would assist in starting a process, but on its own wouldn't achieve much.

I also think a new flag is a better idea, rather than any of the existing Country/Cultural flags.

That is another great sugestion, If we become a republic we could piss the Queens Birthday off for a day of what you are sugesting.

[therisingblues]

What are peoples thoughts on removing the Union Jack from the flag and replacing it with the aboriginal flag and having that with the southern cross, I'm a supporter of the change.

See, this is what I am talking about.
New thread please!